Sourdough - Toss or not to toss debate
Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2024 8:22 pm
Well, I got banned from a Sourdough for beginners group on Facebook for expressing my somewhat educated opinion. One of the reasons I have forums is to get away from the "If you don't agree with me, you can't be a member of my group" mentality. Which boggles my mind in a baking group but there you go..
DISCLAIMER: I will state quite clearly I do not have a professional medical or science background, but have always been quite interested in yeasts, viruses, and bacteria. Or if you are Ghostbusters fan "Spores, molds, and fungus". Do not take my opinion for fact, or best kitchen practices. If you are at all unsure, error on the side of caution and discard.
What got me banned is that it seemed like every time someone was posting pictures of pictures of started that had gone south, either with Kahn yeast, mold, or streaks of S.Marcescens, it was always DISCARD DISCARD DISCARD.
I pointed out, that a lot of what people are being told to discard could potentionally be saved. I have saved starters before, by either looking for a non affected area of starter or scraping off the bad layer, and taking a small spoonful of good starter moving it to a clean container and starting to feed it, while discarding the rest. Trying to get control of the sour or bitterness with baking soda. Sometimes it worked, sometiemes I just needed to give up.
What is S. Marcense?
Serratia marcescens is a bacteria that thrives in wet, moist environments, It is often found in the bathroom as pink stains in on your sink, toilet bowl, or shower. Where it can be tracked to other parts of your house. Without *heat (Keep that thought! It is difficult to kill, which is why it is one of the most common hospital bourn infections! Again, remember except for heat!
While normally present in the stomach, in even slightly elevated levels it can cause food bourne illness and gastroenteritis.. With symptoms such as fever, chills, vomiting, and diarrhea..
So, if I am acknowledging this bacteria causes food bourne issue, why would I be advocating trying to save the starter at all? Aren't I admitting to being a troll?
Not necessarily. Some sourdough starters have lasted over a thousand years. If starters were this sensitive and prone to spreading foodborne illness and everyone was so ready to toss them at the first sigh of through, we would be lucky to have starter lasting a few weeks!!
Remember I mentioned that except for HEAT, S. Marcense is difficult to kill? How high of a temperature do we need to kill this dastardly bacterium you might be wondering... As low as 143 degrees F / 62 degrees C..... A HA!! We bake at temperatures more than double this! Especially sourdough... Which is usually about 375 degrees F or 190 degrees C..
"But Brent.... Maybe it takes a long time to kill the bacterium at those temperatures than we are baking... " Nope, not gonna get me there either. The bacteria will be killed "most likely" in about 10 -15 minutes.. A loaf usually takes 35 - 45 minutes to bake.
The caveat here is, if the bread is undercooked, and someone with a prexisting digestive issue eats it, there may be enough to make them sick, but but but, the door would also be opened for other ingredients to cause illness here too.. Specifically dairy products.
On top of that, we are more than likely treating a symptom and not providing a cure, or cutting off our nose in spite of our face!
The bacterium most likely did NOT come from the starter, but was tracked from elsewhere into your kitchen, and growing our on your counters, refrigerator, etc and then into your sourdough.. So Even if you get rid of the sourdough. You still may have contaminated food. Or if you save the sourdough. You may get sick from one of the other pathogen reservoirs and blame it on the starter.
If you do find S. Marcennes in your starters, regardless of what you decide to do with it. You need to thoroughly clean your kitchen surfacess, and refrigerator!! If your starter keeps getting contaminated, you need to even expand your cleaning from there! You have other sources in your house.
DISCLAIMER: I will state quite clearly I do not have a professional medical or science background, but have always been quite interested in yeasts, viruses, and bacteria. Or if you are Ghostbusters fan "Spores, molds, and fungus". Do not take my opinion for fact, or best kitchen practices. If you are at all unsure, error on the side of caution and discard.
What got me banned is that it seemed like every time someone was posting pictures of pictures of started that had gone south, either with Kahn yeast, mold, or streaks of S.Marcescens, it was always DISCARD DISCARD DISCARD.
I pointed out, that a lot of what people are being told to discard could potentionally be saved. I have saved starters before, by either looking for a non affected area of starter or scraping off the bad layer, and taking a small spoonful of good starter moving it to a clean container and starting to feed it, while discarding the rest. Trying to get control of the sour or bitterness with baking soda. Sometimes it worked, sometiemes I just needed to give up.
What is S. Marcense?
Serratia marcescens is a bacteria that thrives in wet, moist environments, It is often found in the bathroom as pink stains in on your sink, toilet bowl, or shower. Where it can be tracked to other parts of your house. Without *heat (Keep that thought! It is difficult to kill, which is why it is one of the most common hospital bourn infections! Again, remember except for heat!
While normally present in the stomach, in even slightly elevated levels it can cause food bourne illness and gastroenteritis.. With symptoms such as fever, chills, vomiting, and diarrhea..
So, if I am acknowledging this bacteria causes food bourne issue, why would I be advocating trying to save the starter at all? Aren't I admitting to being a troll?
Not necessarily. Some sourdough starters have lasted over a thousand years. If starters were this sensitive and prone to spreading foodborne illness and everyone was so ready to toss them at the first sigh of through, we would be lucky to have starter lasting a few weeks!!
Remember I mentioned that except for HEAT, S. Marcense is difficult to kill? How high of a temperature do we need to kill this dastardly bacterium you might be wondering... As low as 143 degrees F / 62 degrees C..... A HA!! We bake at temperatures more than double this! Especially sourdough... Which is usually about 375 degrees F or 190 degrees C..
"But Brent.... Maybe it takes a long time to kill the bacterium at those temperatures than we are baking... " Nope, not gonna get me there either. The bacteria will be killed "most likely" in about 10 -15 minutes.. A loaf usually takes 35 - 45 minutes to bake.
The caveat here is, if the bread is undercooked, and someone with a prexisting digestive issue eats it, there may be enough to make them sick, but but but, the door would also be opened for other ingredients to cause illness here too.. Specifically dairy products.
On top of that, we are more than likely treating a symptom and not providing a cure, or cutting off our nose in spite of our face!
The bacterium most likely did NOT come from the starter, but was tracked from elsewhere into your kitchen, and growing our on your counters, refrigerator, etc and then into your sourdough.. So Even if you get rid of the sourdough. You still may have contaminated food. Or if you save the sourdough. You may get sick from one of the other pathogen reservoirs and blame it on the starter.
If you do find S. Marcennes in your starters, regardless of what you decide to do with it. You need to thoroughly clean your kitchen surfacess, and refrigerator!! If your starter keeps getting contaminated, you need to even expand your cleaning from there! You have other sources in your house.